Green Light, Red Light: Kadi Cole on Her Leadership Journey

For many women in leadership, it’s no secret that the challenges are different and more nuanced than their male colleagues experience. Kadi Cole’s leadership journey has given her a unique perspective on women in ministry leadership. On this episode of the Women in Ministry Leadership podcast, Kadi shares some of her insights with hosts Rhonda Davis and Julie Cole.

Dr. Rhonda Davis: I’m excited to have this conversation today with Kadi [Cole]. Just a little bit about her before we jump into our conversation. Kadi began her career as a registered nurse for several years, but since then, she’s had influence in a variety of contexts. She’s worked in higher education as a student development professional, in church ministry with special influence in leadership and multi-site development. But now, she’s fulfilling her passion to serve the community by working with leaders to increase effectiveness in whatever context they’re in. Kadi has developed multiple resources for leaders and organizations, and she’s here today because of her impact on female leaders. She’s been challenging them to use their voice and fulfill their call. So Kadi, we’re so glad that you’re with us here today.

Kadi Cole: Well, thank you both so much. It’s a joy to see and be with both of you always, but this is going to be a great conversation, I know, today.

Julie Cole: I get to ask the first question, Kadi, and I love having people unpack a bit their journey because it’s kind of like, “How did you get here?” when I read your bio. I think it’s interesting that you started as a nurse, but then you kept getting kicked upstairs in leadership, no matter where you were. Did you always know you wanted to be a leader? Did you always have a sense that you wind up in ministry leadership? How did you get here?

Kadi: Yes. Well, I came into ministry through the back door. I think I’ve just recently recognized and settled the fact that I do actually lead at some level. So yeah, I grew up in a very conservative environment. I grew up in Montana in a church of about 150 people. It was a wonderful place to grow up. I learned God’s word. We were just filled with a loving community. It was just such a gift. But I didn’t see a lot of options. I didn’t even know there were things like denominations or that people got paid to work in ministry. So as I was thinking about career planning and visions for my life, none of those things even entered my mind as an option. I didn’t know they existed. And I would say that’s pretty much my journey. God, in his sovereignty, knows where he wants to take us, even if we are completely clueless as to the options.

And I was definitely not one of those people who, at an early age, knew what I wanted to do or had some sort of really specific vision for my life or calling. I felt called to follow the Lord. I felt called to sort of live without agenda and to be fully surrendered to whatever he wanted me to do for as long as he wanted and wherever that was. And that has really been an amazing adventure. So I went into nursing, mostly because I went to college thinking I would study elementary education and marry a pastor. That’s what I thought a really godly woman would do. And no one said that to me. It’s not like my little church trained me to think that was awesome. It was just the only thing I had in my mind for a godly woman.

And so I was engaged to this guy and I was kind of learning about how to listen to the Holy Spirit and his unique direction in my life. And I was like, “Gosh, as it turns out, just marrying a Christian…” And of course, I was doing extra credit by marrying a pastor. There’s a lot of great Christians out there. There’s a lot of great pastors. How do you know which one? And as it turned out, the guy I’d chosen really wasn’t a good fit for me. And so I broke off my engagement, I changed my major to nursing because I thought if that wasn’t the route, then I would be a missionary on the foreign mission field and deliver babies my whole life and never get married and sew my own skirts and that would be the thing I would do for God. Also I had a great plan for me.

Julie: Extra credit again.

Kadi: Yes. I’m all about the extra, if you haven’t already figured that out. And again, these weren’t plans in my mind. It’s amazing how the models we grow up with inform the vision we can imagine ourselves in. And yeah, so I did that and I was on scholarship through college for nursing school from the Veterans Administration, and when I graduated, I had to work at one of their hospitals for a couple years before I went to the mission field. And so I did a lot of short-term medical mission trips, but landed in south Florida where I got a job. As it turns out, when you grow up in Montana, south Florida is a foreign mission field.

Rhonda: No kidding.

Kadi: And so I had serious culture shock, but the two years I lived in south Florida, I started being a part of a church that actually encouraged women to lead. It was the kind of church that had music that you weren’t embarrassed by. You could bring your friends to church and it wasn’t the last place you’d bring someone exploring their faith. These were all new mindsets for me and I fell in love with local church. I think partly because I grew up in such a healthy, loving local church. I just didn’t have language for it. I didn’t realize there were ways to even update that or create context around that. And so when I got the chance to lead and understand how it really works and how the New Testament describes for us ways we can multiply as partners in the body, I think God knew that’s where I landed. And so I was a high level volunteer for several years. As I did higher education, I picked up a master’s degree at that university. And then when my church was growing rapidly, they recruited me on staff.

And for me, I was just always walking through the next door God opened. I just wanted to be faithful where I was and when God opened a door, I wanted to say yes, and that’s what I did. And it is amazing when you do those two things: when you just work really hard in the space you’re in to be faithful and you say yes to the doors that open or you bump a few doors open for yourself. It’s amazing where God will take you, and I feel like my story is definitely an example of that.

Rhonda: No kidding. How did you know that? Talking about that, your life being this kind of series of yeses, was there ever a time that more than one opportunity…

Julie: Yeah.

Rhonda: Came in front of you, more than one door was open, and how did you decide which one to walk through first?

Kadi: Yeah, there have been multiple times, I think, where that’s happened. I think for me, those were never career decisions or, probably even maybe not the best thing, but I never stopped and said, “what do I want to do?” I probably would encourage my younger self to ask that question more. Where do I want to live? Or who are the people I want to be around? I really just wanted to obey what God was doing. And so I oftentimes went to my faith values, so things like commitment, integrity. So in fact, when I moved to south Florida, I had gotten a job at one of the new hospitals opening here. It was a long way from home. I got a job in the psych ward, which was not the kind of nursing I thought I would end up doing.

Julie: Yeah.

Kadi: As it turns out, as a side note, by the way, though, working in a locked psych unit ends up being really great training for ministry. So when you’re working the altar and you can tell the difference between does this person need the prayer team or a shot of Haldol, that is very helpful many times. But I wasn’t doing it because I wanted to be in psych, but I loved it. And so I just trusted the Lord knew me better than I knew myself.

But even as I was making that decision, I got a second job opportunity for Austin, Texas, which I didn’t know it would be such a cool place to live one day because this was a long time ago. But I remember I had already committed to West Palm Beach. And even though this other job was probably more in line with what I imagined myself doing and it was a job that was opening up sooner so I could kind of pay back my scholarship faster, the Florida job was taking a little while to open the new hospital, I just knew I had already made a commitment and I wanted to be someone who kept their commitments.

And so I turned down the Austin job and I waited for the Florida job. And I look back now and gosh, that was a pivotal moment that brought me in. I actually started in the recruiting office because the hospital wasn’t open yet. So the nurse recruiter brought me in, I worked in recruiting and training and development for six months, which now, I look back. I was 21 years old when that happened. But now, I work in that space full time. And that early experience, that six months of opening a hospital and having my hands on every nursing staff that we hired, that was a pivotal experience for me that God just has continued to multiply over and over in my life. And so I’ve always just stuck with those faith values, my personal values, the things I felt like Jesus wanted me to live out as a human, as a disciple, as a follower, and then just trusted that would guide me in the steps he wanted me to take. And so far, I’m feeling really good about it.

Julie: That’s great. What would you say your favorite thing to do is that has kind of led you along the way? What did you just love to do that kind of guided you?

Kadi: I would say I am a person who loves to see the next steps get developed. So whether I’m running a department, a health and wellness center at a university, I want to be a part of taking that space and making it bigger, making it grander, taking it to the next level. When I do coaching for leaders, I love to do what’s called a life plan process where we do this retreat and we kind of discern where God has been leading you and what’s next. And then strategize, how are you going to get there? What are the doors that God is already opening? What do you need to bring into your life to see these dreams come true? And so I’m a development person. I’m a forward person. I’m not really a primary vision-caster, but when there is vision, I love to bring that vision to fruition.

And for me, knowing who I am, knowing what my gifts are, knowing what I bring to an experience or to a team or to a challenge or to an opportunity, if I show up and bring that, that has always just served me well and served the people that I’m called to work with. It’s always been what’s needed at the time. But it is at the kind of job that doesn’t last forever. I haven’t stayed in any one job super long. I stay at places a long time, but my jobs tend to evolve. I tend to move around because when you’re someone who’s about change and about improvement, there’s kind of an end season to that. There’s a time to really grow and move forward, and then there’s kind of a time to stay and stabilize. I’m not so good in the stabilizing spaces, so I tend to move on a little bit.

Julie: Reminds me of you, Rhonda.

Rhonda: I’ll take that.

Julie: Yeah.

Rhonda: I’ll take that.

Julie: Yeah.

Rhonda: That’s real. When did you recognize that about yourself? You were talking about needing to be so secure in who we are and what we bring to the table. I think that’s really, really valuable insight for every leader and every female leader, for sure, just to know what exactly am I bringing and what am I not bringing? So what was that discovery like for you? Did you have some mishaps along the way? I’m sure it was just smooth sailing for you all the way through.

Julie: Yeah.

Rhonda: But when did you discover that and how did you show up in that?

Kadi: Well, I think most of my life has been a process of elimination of what I should not be doing. And so a lot of it is just a lot of experimentation and what’s working? Where is God at? What’s fruitful? What does he bless? And what does he not bless? And actually, that question is really sort of the baseline of the book that I just wrote, “Find Your Leadership Voice,” because it’s kind of my journey and how I try to think about what is my leadership voice and where do I use it? And as I look back over my life, and I’m sure all of us can do this, I see places where God did something bigger than me. But he usually used my giftedness. He used some of my experiences, the uniquenesses of my personality that made it extra special, that I’m so grateful for and I can honor that.

And then there are places where I tried to do something and it kind of fell flat on its face or I overstepped my boundaries or I had too big of an opinion of what authority God had given me at the time and I sort of blew my influence. Those were actually more important indicators for me. The red lights were always more important for me than the green lights because they showed me where my boundaries were. And I had a lot of freedom to play in the green light spaces when I knew where the yellow and red light spaces were, kind of like guardrails on a freeway.

Rhonda: Yeah.

Kadi: In my early twenties, I kind of went over the rails a lot. And so…

Rhonda: Right?

Kadi: And when you’re a person who’s gifted in ways that are stronger or louder or bigger, it’s just easy to overstep. And I think one of the biggest challenges for women from faith communities, especially if you grew up in one, is that overstepping your line tends to be the unforgivable sin for women. And understanding, underselling, shrinking back, questioning yourself tends to be celebrated. And the two Bible leaders that I love to talk about this with is the difference between Esther and Miriam. So Esther is someone who struggled with a sticky floor, who kind of questioned herself, but when the moment came to lead, she sort of shrunk back and wanted someone else to do the job. And I think in a lot of our cultures, we think that’s honoring about Esther. I would say that being too passive and shying away from opportunity is very similar to what we see in Miriam.

Miriam was a big, bold leader. She basically negotiated with Pharaoh’s daughter to save her little brother and get her mother paid at the same time.

Rhonda: Mm-hmm.

Kadi: She led the Israelites in worship after they went through the Red Sea. Right? But then she overstepped her bounds. She started criticizing Moses. She started thinking she could do a better job. And by the way, he wasn’t doing that great of a job. She was not that wrong. But it was her attitude. And it wasn’t what God called her to do. She was doing more than what God called her to do. That isn’t any worse or any better than what Esther did. Both were sort of off base from rocking in the spirit and knowing who they were and what they were called to and stepping in faith and having self-control within that step of faith to be right where God planted them.

And so for those of us with bigger gifts, I think it’s important to remember Miriam’s story and how God restored her to leadership. And for those of us who have moments where we shrink back, and we all have both moments, by the way, it’s important to remember how Esther was open to Mordecai resetting her perspective on what God was doing and the things that he saw in her that she couldn’t see in herself and not fight input from other people but believe them and take steps of faith. And so that process of understepping, overstepping, understepping, overstepping is how we learn what we’re called to do, and the goal is to do more and more in that godly center wheel of leadership, assertiveness, where we’re speaking truth and honoring those around us. That’s where we find our sweet spot.

Julie: I love that. We kind of discovered your developing female leaders book and you during COVID. And so we had cute little talks on Zoom and you were…

Kadi: I loved those.

Julie: You were stuck at home and we were stuck at home, but now, things are taking off again and you’re flying places and you’re talking about the red light, green light. How do you find balance for your life? You don’t just work. You have a family. How do you negotiate balance in your life with so many opportunities?

Kadi: Yeah, I think one of the things for me is just to remember that God cares about all my callings.

Julie: Mm-hmm.

Kadi: He wants me to be a great mom. He wants me to take care of my body. He wants me to get a good night’s sleep.

Julie: Yeah.

Kadi: He wants me to have friends and community. He wants me to visit my parents. And he wants me to thrive in ministry and he wants me to have a career and he wants me to have enough money and he wants me to be able to take advantage of opportunities. He wants all of that for me. And part of what I’ve learned about myself, I get into trouble when I get a little too focused on one of my callings and I try to find all of those things in just my work or just my family or just in my boundaries or just in my Sabbath.

And I like to check things off the list. I want simple, easy-to-implement solutions. And I know I’m in trouble when I start demanding more from a calling than what it’s supposed to be. It means I’m shrinking. I’ve got a scarcity mindset. I’m cutting things out that God is calling me to. So for me, part of it is good boundaries. And then part of it is also being open enough to allow God to meet a need in me in the way he chooses to meet it. And balancing all of those things is part of how I walk in the spirit, and I trust that if my son is going through a tough time, which he’s had a few hard times in middle school and COVID, and kids go through tough times.

Rhonda: Yeah.

Kadi: And so my calling as a mom really matters to me. And so those are the conferences I say no to because I need to be more at home. But then there are seasons where he is doing great, and those are the conferences I say yes to and I get on a plane. And that’s part of how I know if it’s a red light or not, is the season I’m in and what my callings are demanding of me.

Rhonda: That’s really good and must come from a secure place. I mean, you can’t be really insecure and feel confident in what you’re saying yes to and no to. You kind of have had to come to this place of security in God and security in what he says about you and how he’s identified you. How have you cultivated that over time? What has that looked like for you, that forming of your soul alongside of the incredible skill and gifts that you have? I know that the inside of you is matching the outside.

Julie: Yeah.

Rhonda: So how has that happened for you?

Kadi: Well, I think one of the best gifts for me, at least, of being a female leader in a conservative church experience is that I spent most of my life pursuing Christlikeness, not pursuing leadership. And I did way more Bible studies on identity than I ever did on leadership or influencing others or anything like that, especially in my growing up years. And so I secured a lot of those things before I had opportunities to lead. And I’m so grateful for that because I never worry about losing leadership. I really don’t need it to know who I am. And I see a lot of leaders who are put into leadership early in their life not know how to separate their performance from their identity in Christ. And I’m not even the person to ask about that because that is just really not been my journey.

My biggest steps was saying yes, when I thought I would be displeasing people for leading. It wasn’t longing for leadership or finding my identity in it and having it be taken away. And so I think that security, I would say I’ve have had to navigate it as a parent. I take motherhood really seriously. And I ended up with only one child, which is way fewer than I thought I would have. So I have a lot riding on this one kid. Even the way I’m phrasing it, you can tell this is an issue for me. But I’ve had to play war games with myself that says, “Gosh, Lord, if you were to ever take Ethan away from me before I go to heaven, what will that mean for me?” Even talking about it can shake me internally more than it should.

And that’s when I know I’ve got something I’m holding onto, that I’m finding my purpose or identity in that isn’t an overflow of my wholeness in Christ. It’s something I long for. It’s something I’m holding onto. He’s about to go to college here in the next couple months. So the last probably two or three years, I have been methodically working myself through every book on being an empty nester, of launching your kid well, every character I can find in the Bible who had to lay down their kid, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I have got to get this solidified,” because if I don’t, I’m going to be horrible for him. He’s going to end up not wanting me around. But I’m going to miss the opportunity of enjoying a job well done because I’m going to be focused on what I’m missing instead of on the fruit of my work.

And I think a lot of times we do the exact same thing in leadership or in ministry or in jobs is that, especially if we’ve longed for it for a long time and we feel like we have a lot riding on it, we put pressure on a calling that really isn’t supposed to be there. We’re supposed to be able to sit back at the end of the day, take a deep breath, and just feel amazingly satisfied at a job well done, regardless of how it went, regardless of what went wrong or they did or didn’t meet our expectations or the work did or didn’t do good. We can know we did everything we were supposed to do with the Lord that day, and we can feel satisfied on a job well done. And when we don’t feel that, we’ve got something else tied to it.

Rhonda: That’s really good insight, in being able to rest in that and enjoy the fruitfulness.

Kadi: Yeah.

Rhonda: As people that want to improve and grow, sometimes I forget to stop and pause and this was good. This was good.

Julie: Yeah.

Kadi: It’s supposed to be fun!

Rhonda: Right. We’re supposed to be able to enjoy that. Right?

Julie: Yeah.

Rhonda: Instead of just moving all the time. Sometimes it just takes a minute.

Kadi: I would say the number one difference I see between the male leaders and female leaders I coach is that piece right there. And I really wouldn’t have known it if I didn’t have guy clients, but they tend to feel so proud of themselves, of what they’ve done in ministry. And then I coach these women who have done circles around these guys and they feel like they are never quite enough. And I just feel like that is the biggest shame and lie in the kingdom for female leaders right now, is that these incredible leaders, this incredible kingdom work, these amazing sacrifices, all this blood, sweat, and tears, and they look at it and they go, “Ugh, I wish that could have been better.” Instead of, “Oh my gosh, Lord, look at what you did. And I got to be a part of it.” And just feeling satisfied, not prideful, not boastful, but satisfied in a job well done.

Rhonda: What do you think keeps us from doing that? Why do we do that?

Kadi: Well, I think perfectionism has such a hold on us. And when you combine sort of that emotional identity of perfectionism with a leadership gift that always can see room for improvement, it is a wicked combination. And so part of it is we just don’t judge ourselves accurately. I was talking with a gal this morning and she would say she knows she’s hard on herself only because other people tell her that about herself. But in her mind, she looks at a situation, and she started the project a month ago, it’s now at the end of a month long project, she’s looking at it and she knows more now a month later. She’s gotten feedback forms from people. There’s been new information brought to light, and she’s holding herself and grading herself on the job she did on the last month based on the information she has today, as if she knew that stuff a month ago.

If she had known all that information a month ago, she would’ve changed what she did, but based on what she knew, she did an absolutely fantastic job. But she’s holding herself to a standard that only God knows. Only God can see the future. And we hold ourselves to these standards, and she’s blaming herself for not knowing stuff she didn’t know before. And that is so unrealistic.

Rhonda: Right.

Kadi: And it’s dishonest. And so I just encourage her and all of us, I do this to myself too, what would you say if this were someone else, if this were a friend or a colleague or someone who called you up on your podcast and said, “I just did this work and the evaluations said this”? What would you say to her? I can almost guarantee you would say to her, “That was amazing. I cannot believe you pulled that off in a month. Look at the great marks you got.” You would not say, “Look at these two people who gave you a three instead of a five on these two categories.”

Julie: Yeah.

Kadi: Right? But that’s what our eye goes to. And then our heart, which is longing to be perfect, aligns with it and we make this judgment on ourself that really is just not honest. I don’t think we need to make ourselves feel better for bad work. I think we just need to honestly judge the good work we’ve already done.

Julie: You have such an opportunity to get the pulse of women as you travel. Would you say that what you’re talking about is the key thing that we struggle with? Or what are other things that you see that are common pitfalls?

Kadi: I do think perfectionism, in my opinion, I believe is probably at the root of a lot of it. Just these high standards and expectations we feel other people have of us that are really just not true. That feeds into a lot of things. So we get the sticky floor, things that we’ve talked about before, which is kind of those mindsets and ideas we tell ourselves that prevent us from trying something new or going for a job opportunity or applying for a promotion. I think it’s at the root of competition among women. I think the tide is turning on that a little bit, but definitely in environments where there are not a lot of women in leadership and it feels like the culture isn’t open to too many women, it’s easy to sort of feel like there’s a scarcity about what we can do or what we can offer or who’s going to get the one seat that’s available.

And that comes from that perfectionism thing. I think how we judge one another and we don’t authentically champion and open doors for each other and position ourselves to be generous with each other. I find this is a test for me I call myself on all the time. I do judge women harder than I judge the guys. I hate it about myself.

Rhonda: Yeah.

Kadi: I work really hard to correct it. But a guy gets up and he gives a mediocre message at a conference. And I’m like, “Well, that was typical.” And then a woman gets up and the whole time I’m thinking, “Is this going to be any good? I’m not sure I like that joke. What’s she thinking with this? Where’s she going with that?” I have a different attitude instead of being like, “I’m praying for her. I’m championing her. Isn’t she awesome?” And I’m so much better than I was five years ago when I first started to really look at myself about these things. It’s a skill set and a habit and a discipline. But those things come because I hold myself to perfectionistic tendencies and I want other women to meet them also.

Rhonda: Right.

Kadi: So all of those pieces, just that idea that we need to be enough, or we need to be more, or there’s something to prove, or that there are expectations that if we don’t meet them, we will lose the job, we will lose credibility, we’ll never get another chance to do this again, those are all just lies that we believe but we don’t talk about. And then we make decisions based on them that are confusing to other people and they don’t know how to help us. And so, yeah, unlocking that in our own hearts and helping one another unlock it and speaking truth to each other and calling ourselves out on a lie.

Really, only another female leader knows what I’m talking about. I talk about this stuff with the guys all the time and they kind of glaze over it. They don’t get it. And so when they’re leading women, they don’t know how to help them. And so we have to do this for each other. We got to deal with our own junk. And then we got to lovingly be advocates for the other women we know and help them see what they can’t see for themselves. Be the Mordecais that bring God’s perspective and showing women how we see how God has positioned them for these moments, for such a time as this. It’s hard to see that for yourself when you’ve been conditioned to shrink back. We need to help each other see those moments.

Rhonda: I love that. That’s something we talk about a lot. Julie and I are often talking with each other and our students about how we can champion one another.

Julie: Yeah.

Rhonda: There’s enough to go around. There’s enough…

Kadi: Yes.

Rhonda: And so…

Kadi: There is always enough people to lead…

Julie: Yes.

Kadi: And serve and love in the kingdom. There will always be more than enough.

Rhonda: Right. So I love it when I’m trying to do the same thing and pay more attention to those moments that I can champion someone else.

Julie: Yep.

Rhonda: And I find that I feel better about myself when I do that. It’s a little bit easier for me to see things rightly. Well, just a couple more things we wanted you to share. Can you tell us about your current project? What are you working on? What’s happening with you right now?

Kadi: Sure. I’ve got two projects. One that’s developed, the “Find Your Leadership Voice” book. I’m working on some retreats about helping women sort of find their leadership voice. And we have a dashboard process that we kind of align with your organizational authority, your personal authority, your spiritual authority. I find that it’s just very confusing for women to know what should I do? What should I not do? When do I use my voice? When do I not? So that’s been really fun to experiment with that.

And I’m working on a new book project around female leaders of the Bible. It’s really going to be a leadership lesson book, but using all female leaders and trying to help women see themselves in scripture and their leadership gifts. But also hopefully, I really like to write books about women for men. And so hopefully it will be an opportunity for the guys to have some messages or some ways of looking at female leaders in the Bible with actual leadership lessons and not just, “Oh, she was a mom or a prostitute or didn’t really matter.”

Rhonda: Yeah.

Kadi: Those were kind of how I grew up. I felt like the two choices was mom, prostitute, or we gloss over you.

Rhonda: Right.

Kadi: But a lot of it…

Rhonda: So true.

Kadi: We read in scripture the paradigm we come with, and I do it with other parts of the Bible. I can see women really easily, but I don’t recognize other nationalities or other ages or things that are different than me. And so I just want to try to help raise the level of leadership conversation around some of the great women leaders in scripture.

Rhonda: Well, your resources are such a gift to the church, such a gift to those of us who are finding our way in this leadership landscape. But the last thing that I just wanted to ask is just something fun and tell us, what have you been reading lately? Or what have you been into lately that’s been inspiring to you?

Kadi: Yeah, well, other than empty nest books…

Rhonda: Right.

Kadi: And sending your kid to college… I’ve read a lot of those.

Rhonda: I think I’m going to need to borrow some of those in the coming months.

Kadi: Yeah. I’ve been actually… This is really a departure for me. I started it in COVID, though, because I am a non-fiction book queen, but I’ve really been challenging myself to read fiction books with strong female characters. And part of it is I really do want to understand women’s different perspectives and the thought processes behind there. And there is something about reading fiction and reading books that gives you more insight than what you can watch in a movie or on television. And so I’ve been reading series’ about that and that has been really inspiring to me, really helpful for me. I didn’t grow up with a lot of strong female role models in business or kind of working in male-dominated arenas. I went into education, nursing and ministry…

Rhonda: Yeah.

Kadi: Higher education, all female-oriented worlds. And so I think for me right now… I just turned 50 a few weeks ago. So I…

Rhonda: Happy birthday.

Kadi: Thank you. I know, I’m very proud of it. And I’m about to be an empty nester and I sense the Lord taking me to even bigger levels. I’m amazed at the journey I’ve been on. I’m more surprised than anyone that I’m still in ministry after 20 plus years. I really am honored that I get to speak now to people and work with so many churches. But it’s outside my paradigm for myself. And so having that ability to prayerfully dream about bigger for yourself is not something that’s easy for me. I’m a little more pragmatic than that. So reading stories of women doing big things is one of the ways I encourage and stretch myself to imagine more for myself.

Rhonda: I love that.

Julie: Mm-hmm.

Rhonda: I love that. So if people want to get ahold of your resources, what’s the best place to direct them?

Kadi: Sure. So my website is the best place to go. That’s spelled And then you can follow me on social channels at @kadicole.

Rhonda: I love it. Thanks so much for being with us.

Julie: Yes.

Rhonda: It’s always…

Kadi: Well, thank you.

Rhonda: A wonderful conversation that we have. You stretch us and challenge us and you bless us all the time. So we thank you for what you’re doing.

Kadi: Well, I adore both of you, so thank you for what you’re doing in the kingdom. It’s so important and I’m cheering for you guys also.

Rhonda: Absolutely.

Julie: Thank you so much.

Rhonda: Absolutely. And thanks for joining us. And if you liked what you heard, we encourage you to click the subscribe button, and we’ll see you next time.