When God Uses Our Weaknesses

So much has changed since Jan Greenwood began serving in the ministry, and much of it is due to women like her paving the way for a new generation of leaders. In this episode of the Women in Ministry Leadership Podcast, hosts Rhonda Davis and Julie Cole talk to Jan about what’s changed during that time, passing the baton to the next generation, and God using our weaknesses to accomplish His work.

Dr. Rhonda Davis: Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us again. Not long ago, Julie and I had a wonderful conversation with Jan Greenwood. She’s a pastor and founder of an online network called Brave Strong Girl, and our conversation was just so impactful as we listened to Jan talk about what it can be like to experience disappointment in your ministry journey. So I hope you enjoy this as much as we did.

Julie Cole: Hello, listeners. We are excited to be here today with Jan Greenwood. And Jan, I’m going to read your bio here. It says that you are a pastor, a teacher, an author of Women at War. You began serving as a leader over 25 years ago while battling breast cancer. You founded Brave Strong Girl. We’ll talk a little bit more about that. It’s an online mentoring community. You currently serve on the pastoral team at Gateway Church in the Dallas, Fort Worth area. We’re so glad you’re here, Pastor Jan. Thank you for being with us.

Jan Greenwood: Gosh, that sounds really special.

Julie: You’re special.

Jan: Just Jan. I love that. Thank you so much for inviting me today.

Julie: Absolutely.

Jan: I love the two of you in the work that you’re doing, and I’m excited about the development of your podcast and really honored that we can have this conversation today.

Julie: Well, you’re on our short list, always.

Jan: Thank you.

Julie: We kind of start with the same question every time, and we’re interested in your path to where you are today. A lot of times someone will know, right when they’re young, I want to do this, or others kind of meander and get to where they are. What’s your path? How would you describe yours?

Jan: I’m a meanderer. I’m a meanderer for sure. I grew up with a lot of vision for leading. Wanted my life to make a difference. I thought it would be in the marketplace, and I’m totally surprised that I’m a woman in biblical ministry. Still, after all these years, I still found myself a little bit awestruck that God did it because I didn’t even know women could be inside the church other than some very basic administrative roles. When I was first asked in a little tiny church in West Texas to be a lay women’s pastor, I just remember saying to that sweet man, took my husband and I to lunch, and I just looked at him and said, if you need someone to order the flowers for the podium on Sunday, or prepare the meals for the funerals or be the hospitality of the house, I don’t really have any of those gifts.

But if you have someone who’s excited about life in the spirit and really want to help people grow, I would be so honored to serve. So that kind of tells you my perspective of what I thought women in ministry was. I don’t mean to disrespect those, but that’s all I had ever really seen. And since I don’t have any kind of musical gift, the other place I saw women serve was a choir or playing the piano. Yeah. And he was gracious. He’s like, no, that’s not what I’m looking for. That would be great. So God just made a way for me.

Julie: And was that a good experience, that first role?

Jan: Yes. It was great because it was this very small community. I was surrounded by women who had kind of come in at this similar time, and it was right at the beginning of our life in this spirit. So that was kind of really what brought us to this congregation is we, my husband and I had been through a pretty difficult season, and a friend asked my husband about, what’s the Holy Spirit doing in your life. And my husband was like, what are you talking about? And he gave him a book to read and Mark and I started reading all these books on the Holy Spirit. Well, if you get really excited about the Holy Spirit in life. And this spirit, he shows up and then there’s a fire in you that you didn’t have before. So I was gathering with a community of women, we were all novices.

We didn’t have a matriarch really, but we would open the word together and we would talk about our life and our kids would be at our feet and we’d get together every Friday afternoon and it was bring your own snacks and the kids would play and we would open the word together. That’s how I began ministering, which is still, it’s coffee shop ministry is still some of my very favorite moments. And it wasn’t so much that I was leading them as we were mutually submitted and we grew together. So I think that was a really precious start. And then eventually it took a more formal role and I took the time to spotlight a woman that I didn’t know, but who had a role that I thought drifted more toward my strengths. And I made a phone call to her and asked if I could come and visit.

I promised to be prepared. I drove five hours, I spent the day with her. I had 10 questions, and it was phenomenal. It gave me so much hope. And so when I came back from that meeting, it was a little bit more, my leadership skills from all those years of education and workforce. I began to kind of strategize a women’s ministry, but I’m grateful I just didn’t do it off of what I had known or experienced because it was so limited.

Rhonda: What were some of those 10 questions?

Jan: Oh gosh.

Rhonda: Can you remember any of them?

Jan: Yes. Some of them I can. Yes. So I remember asking a question about what do you do when someone in your congregation, it appears that they’re doing something in sin, and how do you speak to them and how do I keep myself from falling into the trap of sin that I can’t see?

And what makes you choose an event over something small? And what draws women, I mean, she had a huge following of women. What’s the most important thing when you bring them all together? What did you value and how do you personally lead? Are you the front person? And I just learned so much, and she recommended some books to me. She recommended John Bevere’s book on the Bait of Satan. And that book really taught me a lot, like a lot. There’s a lot of places I feel like she helped me keep my foot out of by being able to recognize and really her saying to me, this is the most profound thing. She said to me, “every fight is not yours, be certain that you have both the authority and the favor if you speak into a situation that’s above the protocol of your job.”

Julie: Wow,

Jan: Man, that was wisdom. Right?

Julie: Yes.

Jan: So I think that’s very powerful thing that I don’t know why I was inspired. I just knew I didn’t know what I was doing. And I got brave. And she, I’m sure was an annoyance. I was falling her around all day, but she really blessed me and deposited some good seeds.

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Well, something I see in that though is we’ll hear women, and I was in this position too, where I didn’t have a mentor for what I was doing, but you can go and find one. I mean, today we can listen to videos, but I mean the personal questions, you can email somebody and ask the worst thing that’ll happen as you get a no. But you can find those people.

Jan: That’s right. Yeah. And it’s good to find someone whose fruit you like. So I just saw that she was having big gatherings that women were excited about coming. I was aware that there was a growing passion in their church and that her pastor was not negative toward her. I kind of already gathered those by probably the rumor mill. And so I myself have always thought you should give what you were given. And so if I get a chance to offer some counsel or advice or like, be here today, it means a lot to me because I don’t know, nobody tells you how to steward your life in this spirit, really. And so you do have the great teacher, the Holy Spirit, and one of the things the Holy Spirit loves to do is take you to other people who live in this spirit and connect you.

Julie: That’s great.

Jan: Yeah.

Julie: And you’re a connector.

Jan: Yeah. Yeah. I like people.

Julie: Yeah. I want to make sure that we talk about your most recent book, the Grace Giving Leader, but Rhonda and I were kind of laughing that one of your last books is Women at War, going to a grace or that sort of… I feel like there must be a story there.

Jan: Yeah. Well, there definitely is a story. I wrote Women at War. In 2013, I released it, and it took me a long time to write it because I was on a revelation about who I was as a woman. I grew up as an only child, and my mom was very young when she had me, came down with a very life altering illness right after I was born. And she was the baby of her family. And I just became an instant adult. And then I had a spiritual experience when I was seven. That was not of the Lord. But in that moment, I made an inner vow and I kind of changed places. I became the mother of my mother. And so what I learned is that wow, you can set an environment, you can kind of control how people feel.

I had this empathy so I could know when the temperature in the room was escalating, but it’s all this false responsibility. It’s like a perversion of my gifts. And so the ultimate root of that is that by the time I graduated from college and got married and went into a working role, I actually realized pretty quickly that I didn’t actually like to be with women. So when you realize you don’t like to be with women, you have to think about that. So for a while I just disregarded that. But at seven years of marriage, I got pregnant. Guess what? It was a girl.

And that motivated me to dig out some issues.

Julie: I’m going to have to learn how to like her.

Jan: Oh, gosh. Exactly. And I was terrified of just trying not to repeat patterns. I wanted her to not dislike who she was, because at the root of not liking to be with women means I don’t really like to be with me. I don’t really like my own identity, so I’ll adapt to a more male identity. I’ll be a stronger leader. I’ll be very bottom line. I can manage this room. I show you I can play at this game. And it’s very easy for women like me to adapt to a male-driven community. And so I have women tell me all the time, oh, I don’t like together with women, too much drama.

Julie: Yeah, we’ve heard that as well.

Jan: Yes. And I know there is a lot of drama. God made us with emotions, and there’s nothing wrong with our emotions. We’ve just been taught that our emotions are our weakness or we’re out of control. And actually how I feel about my emotions today is they’re always telling me something. Sometimes they’re telling me I’m weak, but sometimes they are alerting me to the presence of the enemy or to the presence of the Lord. Sometimes it’s a moment where my emotions arise and I know that I need to lead in this moment. And sometimes there’s a moment where I enter into spiritual warfare, like, how can you follow God if you shut down all your emotions.

So the Lord began to take me through healing. I did some therapy and I began to read the Bible about women and just discover how God treated them. But I really spent a lot of time in Genesis 3 and the Devil and Eve having this conversation, and then the Lord coming and laying the curse on them.

And I just had this moment where I was like, oh my gosh, the devil hates women. He hates men too for their own reason. But he really hates us because it says that we will be the one that produces the one that rises up and crushes his head. And so if he can keep us from even owning that moment of where we understand we have the authority and the power to crush his head, and we carry the gift of life-giving in us, we carry life in us, then we’re terrifying to him. And if we build the kingdom physically, spiritually, emotionally, he just freaks out, but he also knows that our thinker is kind of our weak spot. Eve fell because she was wanting to be wise. She wanted to be more like God, I can understand that temptation. He didn’t say, eat this apple and God will never speak to you again, but your life will be so better.

He didn’t show her any death or separation or consequence. She just got caught up in focusing on what she didn’t have instead of everything that laid before her. So once the Lord began to show me… when I wrote Women at War, it began to unravel for me. It’s like, man, I’ve been in a war and I didn’t even know it. And so there’s just that journey of self-discovery. I recommend Women at War as a great tool for a woman who is leading a community of women, especially if they’re your leaders, you’re the leader and they’re your leaders, because it will stimulate conversation and it will equip them to identify women in the congregation who may be struggling in this very same area.

Rhonda: That takes so much discernment. You were talking about emotions and as a leader, especially in this life and the spirit, it’s just kind of a constant inner discernment. What has helped you figure that out? I think when I feel this, I am asking these questions of myself or how do you know sometimes what they’re teaching you, what they’re letting you know?

Jan: Yeah. Well, for a while I was discerning everyone to the point of rudeness. I wanted to applaud an algorithm. What I discern now is generally something they will say or in their behavior. And my response to it is, I feel a little sad. I just feel like, oh, like there’s a wound there and it’s not your personality. It’s not about how you’re shaped as a personality. It is about how you choose to protect yourself. And so sometimes I tell them, and sometimes I won’t. I don’t feel like it’s my job to rescue everyone.

When I do see a woman who’s in my congregation, who I know personally, if I see any of those things, you know, take her to coffee and we’ll just chat about, very relationally. And I think teaching is a good way to address it. And then for me personally, when it’s happening to me, it’s always, almost always because I’ll be with women and I feel really awkward. I feel like maybe I don’t belong. I feel like maybe I’m speaking too much, maybe I’m too loud, maybe I’m drawing attention. All of my leadership gifts just come under crushing insecurity. And so now I’m learning when I’m feeling that sensation, especially in the midst of a community of women, generally, somebody’s lurking in my garden.

Julie: Which leads us to being able to give grace to yourself. I’ve heard you talk about this before and say it, you wrote about what you needed to know.

Jan: That’s right. Well, that is the truth. So once God began to heal me, I didn’t even know the concept of grace. I grew up in a very word-based church. So I’d heard the word grace many times and understood that grace was a free gift from God, and that it’s the way you get saved and that it’s the favor of God. I felt like I had the fundamental teaching principles down. But what I began to understand, what really sparked this conversation was that this idea that grace can also be a verb. And when it turns to a verb, it has power. It’s like turning the key on a car. And I was so weak to change or to progress or to even accomplish what God is asking of me to just to be obedient. I felt so lacking. And so I began to ask God for more grace.

And I wasn’t so much thinking about favor, although I think it’s very important when God gives you a free gift, you should take it. But he also gave the free gift of the empowerment of the Holy Spirit and acknowledging that. And so I began to pursue grace on a personal basis for the power to get through, to be transformed. And I’ve always loved the power of God. I beg God, please show up. Show off. Come on, Lord. I want to see people rise from the dead. I want to see people get healed. All the things that you say are basic fundamentals, can I see those. And I want to feel his power. And the Lord began to teach me about what I call soft power and about the power of his presence. And that it’s not all about the shanaya glory, it’s also, it’s his presence.

And his presence just finished my healing and then led me to another place. And by the time I was in this grace thing, I was leading a larger community of women. I had a significant number of people that I was sort of co-leading. And I was reporting to someone that I really was charged with executing that person’s vision, not my vision. And it was just a lot of navigation. And I needed more-

Rhonda: Opportunities for grace.

Jan: Yeah. I need more grace. And I do share more in this book, my failures. If I could say today, what are the great things you’ve done in your life. I don’t know if I really know. I don’t know if I’ve done great things. I think there have been moments where God’s caught me in an obedient moment, and maybe he’s done something great with me, but I wonder if those are the things that happened privately and secret that nobody knew versus the large gatherings and the huge success and all those things.

I don’t even know of those things. So I’d rather talk to you about my weakness than my strength, because even Brave Strong Girl is really was launched out of my weakness, not my strength. And can I just keep talking? I hate to burn time, I want to burn time.

Rhonda: No, you’re good.

Jan: I’m definitely in a season right now where I am grappling with God about my weakness. I’ve been through a really difficult couple of years of just fighting for my physical strength, dealing with my emotions and feeling very unsafe maybe. And those three things really caused me to withdraw, which is not my natural personality, but I just drew back. I just was like, I can’t do it anymore.

So I’ve drawn back into a cocoon and I’m starting to have a rebirth. I’m coming back out. But Brave Strong Girl was titled because my husband said to me one day, honey, I’m just amazed that you’re so brave and so strong. And I just turned to him and said, that is so strange because all I feel is weak and afraid. And so God just began to talk to me about the real courage of the kingdom of God always has to come face to face with fear. And the real strength of the Holy Spirit only comes at its full potential when you have finally laid down your… like reach, the end of your own strength. And see, I guess I have a really strong will.

My Lord, you shouldn’t have given me so much will because for years and years, I would just press on him, do it again. And when I reached the end of, I cannot, and he was silent. I was like, Hmm. Well, did I do anything in the kingdom that was helpful? Is there anything here? And at the same time, I was watching my mother in her final year, and my mom died a year ago this month. Oh, sorry, a year ago in March, we’re almost there.

And that whole last year, the Lord kept saying to me, do you think that I value your mother less because she’s bedridden. She can’t get up, she can’t change her clothes, she can’t shower herself. She was suffering. And he was asking me, does your mom still have a purpose? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, the only strength she has is mine. And so that’s a little scary to know how far we have to go to really understand. And so I don’t really love how he’s rebuilding me in this moment. I don’t really like that it’s through weakness instead of strength. But I’m getting there.

Rhonda: Yeah.

Julie: I can tell you from what I read on your Facebook page that I think one of the best things you’ve ever done is the way that you live your life. You’ve been so authentic, and there have been times that you’ve shared about your cancer journey and just your journey currently that is so raw and so real that it just leaves me speechless. I have to just let it marinate for a while. And it bears fruit. It’s encouraging, even though it’s deep and real. I think that’s great.

Rhonda: Yeah. The strength really is made perfect in our weakness. But that’s not always easy. You see, we were just talking, you see, hopes go by. You see dreams go by. Or wait a minute, I thought this was going to work out this certain way, and now it’s not. Am I the issue we hear, I mean, for my own self, a lot of times I’ll say, I think it’s me. I think I’m in the way. I think I’m the one. God just, if anybody else can do it, just use them. So how do we navigate some of those disappointment? Yeah. Some of those places in our lives.

Jan: Well, I certainly have been dealing with some disappointments. Just things I hoped to accomplish, or t visions and ideas that I believe were God inspired. I don’t think I’ve made all that up on my own. Maybe some of it’s straw and hate, but I don’t think I made it all up. And so these promises or visions or ideas, and I would pray about them and dream about them, and people would say, oh, yes, you should do that. And then to not do that, or to see someone else do it and do it so well, like cheer them on. But it does prick your heart. And I don’t know, I think that part of the walk of being in ministry is disappointment, you’re going to believe God for big things, and some of them you’re going to see and some you’re not.

You’re going to believe him for the people you’re ministering to, to be healed and set free. You can’t do the work for them. So some of them will and some of them won’t. And I guess the way that I’m trying to deal with disappointment is understanding that my disappointment is part of what overwhelmed me in the last couple of years. And I didn’t even know I was disappointed. I did not know I was disappointed. And when the lid came off of the disappointment, I found out I’d actually allowed some of that to become bitter. And that frightened me a little bit because I didn’t think I was bitter. But guess what?

So now I’m trying to read the book of Hebrews and be happy about what I read there instead of being frustrated. So if I read Hebrews 11, it’s still just slaps me in the face. I want to say to the Lord, not one of these people got what you said. And of course, he brought all his promises to pass. He was faithful. But the person who had to shake up their whole life, who had to be bold, who had to be out there, who was the one saying, this is what God said to me, my descendants will be like the sand of the seas, the ones who paid the price.

I know they see it in eternity, but it’s disappointing to me. And so I even thought, I’ve been thinking about Joshua a lot, and following so closely with Moses, and if you read about when God calls Moses to go up to the mountain and die, he gives Moses a song and Moses writes this song that the Israelites would… so they would never forget. And basically the whole song is about how God is not going to let them enter the land. You know, you’re rebellious and stiff necked and no, you can’t have the promise.

And my heart’s been breaking a little bit for Joshua. He lost Moses, who was like his mentor and father and guider, and he had served all this time. And now he’s the leader. And I get the people who can’t cross over. And I get all these new people, I’ve never saw the sea split. And the land is filled with snakes and scorpions.

Rhonda: Thanks a lot.

Jan: Yes. I’ve always just seen Joshua is like, you got the charge, Joshua. Well, you get to lead the people into the promised land. And so I can tell God’s really been cultivating compassion in my heart. Now, let me just say one last thing. God has not answered me about anything of my complaints in Hebrews, so I don’t have understanding, but I do have hope that some of the visions I’ve had will be fulfilled generationally or through someone else. And that ultimately, if I care more about the kingdom of God, then Jan’s Kingdom, it eases my distress. But it’s so easy to get all focused on your vision and your dreams.

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That’s such an honest way of saying that because when God calls us to lead, he doesn’t call us to lead because we don’t want to go anywhere. He calls us to lead because we can see something other people can’t see. And we’re leading them to a place that they haven’t seen yet. So there is this battle all the time. There’s this tension between, oh, what I can see it I believe for and I hope for, and maybe that’s not mine to take hold of. Or maybe it is, or maybe I’m in the middle. Maybe I’m just stewarding something that’s passed from generation to generation. So I just so appreciate, and I think isn’t that kind of part of a holy lament?

Jan: Yeas That would be a great way to say it.

Rhonda: Yeah. That I’m able to say, God, I’m disappointed. But I believe you. I’m hopeful. It will be done. Yeah, it will be done. And this was you. Yeah, I wasn’t just making all this stuff up, but man, I wanted to see it.

Jan: And I beg God for understanding. There’s so much scripture about it. If you get spiritual understanding, you gain so much from God, you can think and hear differently. Biblical understanding is so powerful. And so when I’m looking at my life, or even Hebrews 11 is just such a classic example. I’m saying, I want to understand. And for me right now, I find him silent. And will you trust me when you don’t understand? Oh, I don’t know. I have to grow a little more before I can get there.

So disappointment, it will come, but it also, it’s kind of bittersweet for me. Like okay. And it’s also part of the passing of the torch. I’m reaching an age now where at my home church, we’re very focused on next gen development. You ladies are very focused on putting those warriors in place. And at some point you are not the person on the frontline. You move over and you let them take the baton. And I think, I just thought I still had the strength to pursue that frontline. Let me take it and then I’ll give them the baton. It’s like, could you hand that over? No, they’re too young. They’re going to get killed. They’re going to get hurt. Hurt.

So even that, just the surrender, it’s a submission. I’m going through a period of submission to the Lord in a whole new way and trying to use the energy that I do feel rebuilding. I do feel I’ve entered resurrection, so to speak, of my season, but I want to be really careful what I do with the energy that I have. I want to be sure that I’m only doing what God asked me to do, and maybe he’s going to ask me to do a whole lot less than I thought he was. And so if I have to have more rest, he’s not offended that I need more rest, he would make room for me to rest. So, that whole makes you lie down in green pastures, eww.

Julie: That always sounded good to me. I’m like, I’d rather be up running with this.

Jan: Till he makes you.

Julie: Yeah. Yeah. It’s true.

Jan: It’s a beautiful place. I mean, when he makes you lay down, I will say it is a beautiful place. But to be honest, the experience is more like the death and the burial. So you have this crushing season where it just feels like you’re losing everything. And then to me, you go into the grave for a while and the rock rolls over, and I’ve even said this to the Lord, I don’t know if I’m planted or I’m buried. I don’t know. And so now he’s rolling the rock back, and I think I’m entering resurrection, but I don’t know what seed in that dark place he’s yet to rebuild.

Julie: Yeah. You always mention being an encourager. You like to encourage, you like to mentor. What do you hope that the message of your life is when someone looks at you?

Jan: Wow, that’s a big question. Well, to be honest, I hope they will say I was kind. Kindness really matters to me. And I hope that people will experience me as someone who is just kind to them. Obviously, I hope that kindness reveals the spirit of the Lord. I mean, I have dreams, but those would be the things, like even what I want my children to say. I don’t necessarily want my children to say, mom was a great person working in the church or wrote a book or two.

I want them to feel like I was kind and present, and that maybe the spirit of God was on me, and maybe if that drew someone to God, that would be so incredible. So yeah, a little more humble than my past. I just feel like who called himself the most… Moses the most humble person. I just feel like I just tried to call myself Moses. I don’t think I’m the most humble. I’m just saying humility is being worked in my heart.

Rhonda: That goes back to that. Is it my kingdom or God’s kingdom. And I just think, Jen, you’re talking about some of the things that lie in the heart of a leader that maybe they’re too afraid to say, and you’re honesty with God. You were talking about him not being offended. He’s not offended by those questions. I don’t think either of… what about you promised or about what you did. But coming back to, I hope that what they see is my soul was rich, and the inside of me was bigger maybe than the outside, is beautiful and is what’s most important. And we can just get our eyes crooked sometimes about what really matters the most. So what are some of the practices or what’s feeding you in that? I know you say just with the Lord, I’m just laying it before him. I’m holding all of my thoughts and questions before him. But are there some things that you’ve been able to do that have helped you through this process?

Jan: I would say when I was in the grave, all I could do was rest. So that’s kind of weird when all your spiritual practices cease and you just rest. And I would think thoughts, like I know I need to be reading the word. I know I need to worship. I know the practices to draw the presence of God, but I don’t have the strength and learning that when I felt that I couldn’t, his presence was right there with me. I think the greatest lesson I’ve learned recently is actually that he actually will not leave nor forsake me. So to leave is to walk away, get mad, and walk away, huff, whatever, and I’m not going to live with you anymore. But to forsake is an abandonment. It is an orphan spirit. And so even in the days when I was upset with him or felt I could not, or even Covid is just such a suppressing season, I did experience that he would come and sit with me, which kind of annoyed me.

I was like, could you just heal me?. Why don’t you just lay hands at me and heal me? Come on. I want to be better. But the Lord actually is very patient to sit in our pain. And so he would come and sit with me. Now that the light is starting to come to me, I am finding the word intense for me again, because I’m still reading it with a lot of challenges. It’s not as pleasant, but it is very revelatory. And so I’m reading, I just read the book of James. I’m reading Proverbs one through four, because I think there’s something about wisdom. I like to study a chapter of Isaiah that corresponds to my birth year. So I’m 61 this year. So I’m studying Isaiah 61, which at our home church is the foundational scripture for freedom. And so I’m reading more of 61, and I’m trying to learn more about freedom.

So it’s like pockets of the word are really ministering to me, but I have more questions. I used to just read, and I would read all that judgments for somebody else. But look, here’s the promise of God, not highlight the promise and sort of that’s true because I’ve been redeemed by Christ, but people are suffering. There’s so much suffering in the world. And when you are suffering and you read that same passage, you cannot deny, you know when you read Psalms 88 and you read how long until you come for me. Yeah. Did I answer that question?

Rhonda: Yeah.

Jan: I’m not sure. Yeah. Again, and worship is helping, but the thing that’s helping me more than anything is connection with people that I can be frank and honest with. And to be honest, I don’t need a lot of connection with people. I can’t be frank and honest with because another thing that has happened to me is that my protective shield is pretty thin. So like you said, something about me being vulnerable, my husband will say, why are you always emotionally naked? I’m like, because I don’t have the strength to give you the corporate. Correct, even the theological answer, when my heart is crushed or broken or weak, or I’m afraid. And so I tend to just tell the truth, and somehow he never leaves me nor forsakes me, which I can tell the truth and still encourage someone. Which is amazing to me.

Julie: Well, your realness has been really encouraging to me.

Rhonda: Thank you. And I think just to anybody who’s listening who has questions or doubts or fears, I think that this holy lament that you offer us such a beautiful picture of is in itself encouraging and in itself hopeful. So I just want to say thank you. So thank you. Thank you for being the one that’s gone before and the one that can teach us how to be on top of the mountain and faithful also still in a valley. And so we are grateful for you.

Jan: Thank you. That is so kind.

Rhonda: If anyone wants to reach you or follow you, what’s the best way to do that?

Jan: Yeah. Well, both of my books are listed, all of the major retailers, but you won’t find them on the shelves of retailers, but you can always order them on Amazon. And the Grace Giving Leader is also available in audio.

I wish Women at War was too, but they’re very easy to find just at your normal online locations. And then I would love for you to find me bravestronggirl.org. and I’m trying to rebuild my communication there, and I’m still on Facebook. My daughter’s always like, you need to be on Instagram, mom. And I’m like, I don’t have a strength to learn it. So every once a year I post something on Instagram, but I’m sneaking over there to see what you’re doing.

So follow me because then I’ll see what you’re doing. So yeah, and it’s not too hard to find me. All right.

Julie: So bravestronggirl.org. All right. Perfect. Thank you for being with us, Jan.

Jan: You’re so welcome.

Rhonda: And thank you all for listening. If you’ve liked what you’ve heard, we encourage you to click subscribe. And thanks for joining us today and giving us this moment of time. We’ll talk to you again soon.

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